diff --git a/crates/sign/src/pdf/listing.rs b/crates/sign/src/pdf/listing.rs
index f0b14f5ba2..e4a34763af 100644
--- a/crates/sign/src/pdf/listing.rs
+++ b/crates/sign/src/pdf/listing.rs
@@ -207,17 +207,26 @@ const MAX_FIELD_NAME_BYTES: usize = 32 << 20;
 
 /// Every signature field, depth first in `/Fields` order.
 pub(super) fn sig_fields(doc: &Document) -> Vec<Field> {
+    sig_fields_bounded(doc).0
+}
+
+/// [`sig_fields`], with whether the walk was cut short by [`MAX_FIELD_DEPTH`] or
+/// [`MAX_FIELD_NAME_BYTES`]: the fields it could not reach are then unknown to the caller, which
+/// is what lets a permission lookup fail closed instead of guessing.
+pub(super) fn sig_fields_bounded(doc: &Document) -> (Vec<Field>, bool) {
     let mut out = Vec::new();
-    let Some(root) = doc.root() else { return out };
+    let mut cut = false;
+    let Some(root) = doc.root() else { return (out, cut) };
     let Some(af) = doc.get(root).as_dict().and_then(|c| c.get(b"AcroForm").map(|a| doc.resolve(a))).and_then(|a| a.as_dict().cloned()) else {
-        return out;
+        return (out, cut);
     };
-    let Some(fields) = af.get(b"Fields").map(|f| doc.resolve(f)).and_then(|f| f.as_array().cloned()) else { return out };
+    let Some(fields) = af.get(b"Fields").map(|f| doc.resolve(f)).and_then(|f| f.as_array().cloned()) else { return (out, cut) };
     let mut seen = HashSet::new();
     let mut stack: Vec<(Object, String, Option<Vec<u8>>, usize)> = fields.into_iter().rev().map(|f| (f, String::new(), None, 0)).collect();
     let mut name_bytes = 0usize;
     while let Some((o, prefix, inherited_ft, depth)) = stack.pop() {
         if depth > MAX_FIELD_DEPTH {
+            cut = true;
             continue;
         }
         if let Some(r) = o.as_ref()
@@ -239,6 +248,7 @@ pub(super) fn sig_fields(doc: &Document) -> Vec<Field> {
         // this name, and the clone of it each queued sub-field is about to hold
         name_bytes = name_bytes.saturating_add(name.len().saturating_mul(sub.len() + 1));
         if name_bytes > MAX_FIELD_NAME_BYTES {
+            cut = true;
             break;
         }
         for k in sub.into_iter().rev() {
@@ -253,6 +263,44 @@ pub(super) fn sig_fields(doc: &Document) -> Vec<Field> {
             out.push(Field { name, r: o.as_ref(), dict: d, widgets: ws });
         }
     }
+    (out, cut)
+}
+
+/// Every `/V` an AcroForm field holds, however deep: a standalone document timestamp must not be
+/// confused with a signature a field already carries. No qualified names are built here, so the
+/// name budget that can stop [`sig_fields`] cannot hide a value from it.
+pub(super) fn field_values(doc: &Document) -> HashSet<ObjRef> {
+    let mut out = HashSet::new();
+    let Some(root) = doc.root() else { return out };
+    let Some(fields) = doc
+        .get(root)
+        .as_dict()
+        .and_then(|c| c.get(b"AcroForm").map(|a| doc.resolve(a)))
+        .and_then(|a| a.as_dict().cloned())
+        .and_then(|a| a.get(b"Fields").map(|f| doc.resolve(f).as_array().cloned()).unwrap_or_default())
+    else {
+        return out;
+    };
+    let mut seen = HashSet::new();
+    let mut stack: Vec<(Object, usize)> = fields.into_iter().rev().map(|f| (f, 0)).collect();
+    while let Some((o, depth)) = stack.pop() {
+        if depth > MAX_FIELD_DEPTH {
+            continue;
+        }
+        if let Some(r) = o.as_ref()
+            && !seen.insert(r)
+        {
+            continue;
+        }
+        let Some(d) = doc.resolve(&o).as_dict().cloned() else { continue };
+        if let Some(v) = d.get(b"V").and_then(Object::as_ref) {
+            out.insert(v);
+        }
+        let kids: Vec<Object> = d.get(b"Kids").map(|k| doc.resolve(k)).and_then(|k| k.as_array().cloned()).unwrap_or_default();
+        for k in kids.into_iter().rev() {
+            stack.push((k, depth + 1));
+        }
+    }
     out
 }
 
@@ -283,11 +331,10 @@ pub fn list(doc: &Document, bytes: &[u8], trust: &TrustStore) -> Vec<SignatureIn
 pub fn list_cached(doc: &Document, bytes: &[u8], trust: &TrustStore, cache: &DigestCache) -> Vec<SignatureInfo> {
     let pages = annot_pages(doc);
     let mut out = Vec::new();
-    let mut field_values: HashSet<ObjRef> = HashSet::new();
+    // Every value a field holds, listed or not: a signature below the listing's bounds still
+    // owns its `/V`, which is then not a standalone document timestamp.
+    let field_values = field_values(doc);
     for f in sig_fields(doc) {
-        if let Some(v_ref) = f.dict.get(b"V").and_then(Object::as_ref) {
-            field_values.insert(v_ref);
-        }
         let widget = f.widgets.first();
         let page = widget.and_then(|(r, w)| r.and_then(|r| pages.get(&r).copied()).or_else(|| w.reference(b"P").and_then(|p| page_index(doc, p))));
         let rect = widget
diff --git a/crates/sign/src/pdf/validate.rs b/crates/sign/src/pdf/validate.rs
index 08b482c4b4..cee5d7a4b1 100644
--- a/crates/sign/src/pdf/validate.rs
+++ b/crates/sign/src/pdf/validate.rs
@@ -1,5 +1,5 @@
 use super::changes::classify_changes;
-use super::listing::{DigestCache, list, nums, sig_fields, text};
+use super::listing::{DigestCache, list, nums, sig_fields, sig_fields_bounded, text};
 use super::types::{Detail, Fill, Modification, Status, TrustStore};
 use super::{
     Certificate, Dict, DigestAlg, Document, HashSet, ObjRef, Object, SignError, SignatureInfo, SignedData, Time, build_chain, build_chain_noted,
@@ -246,13 +246,21 @@ fn finish_validation(context: SignatureValidation<'_>, verified: VerifiedSignatu
         // The permissions are the signed revision's: a later one can rewrite `/P` (#1788). This
         // signature is the one whose byte range ends that revision.
         let old = cache.revision(doc, bytes, covered);
-        if let Some(old) = &old
-            && let Some(v) = sig_fields(old)
-                .iter()
-                .filter_map(|f| f.signature(old))
-                .find(|v| nums(old, v, b"ByteRange").is_some_and(|b| b.len() == 4 && b[2] + b[3] == covered as f64))
-        {
-            info.certify = docmdp(old, &v);
+        // The permissions are the signed revision's: a later one can rewrite `/P` (#1788).
+        if let Some(old) = &old {
+            // When the field walk cannot reach every field, the signature that ends this revision
+            // is unknown, so no permission is claimed: keeping `docmdp(doc, v)`, read from the
+            // current revision, would let a later `/P` rewrite speak for the signed one.
+            info.certify = None;
+            let (fields, cut) = sig_fields_bounded(old);
+            if !cut
+                && let Some(v) = fields
+                    .iter()
+                    .filter_map(|f| f.signature(old))
+                    .find(|v| nums(old, v, b"ByteRange").is_some_and(|b| b.len() == 4 && b[2] + b[3] == covered as f64))
+            {
+                info.certify = docmdp(old, &v);
+            }
         }
         classify_changes(doc, old, info.certify)
     };
diff --git a/crates/sign/src/pdf_discovery_tests.rs b/crates/sign/src/pdf_discovery_tests.rs
index 6c0456ac5b..d001a21b15 100644
--- a/crates/sign/src/pdf_discovery_tests.rs
+++ b/crates/sign/src/pdf_discovery_tests.rs
@@ -397,3 +397,27 @@ fn dss_evidence_decodes_each_stream_once_within_its_caps() {
     assert!(ocsps.cut);
     assert!(DssEvidence::new(&doc, &dss, b"OCSPs").count() <= MAX_DSS_ENTRIES);
 }
+
+/// A field tree deeper than the walk follows is reported as cut: a permission lookup that cannot
+/// reach every field must see that, so it fails closed instead of trusting a partial list.
+#[test]
+fn a_field_tree_past_the_walk_depth_is_reported_as_cut() {
+    let mut doc = fixture(&[STAMP]);
+    let mut kid = None;
+    for i in 0..80 {
+        let mut f = Dict::new();
+        f.set(b"FT".to_vec(), Object::name("Sig"));
+        f.set(b"T".to_vec(), Object::String(PdfString::literal(format!("f{i}"))));
+        if let Some(k) = kid {
+            f.set(b"Kids".to_vec(), Object::Array(vec![Object::Ref(k)]));
+        }
+        let id = doc.add(f);
+        kid = Some(id);
+    }
+    let mut form = Dict::new();
+    form.set(b"Fields".to_vec(), Object::Array(vec![Object::Ref(kid.unwrap())]));
+    doc.update_dict(doc.root().unwrap(), |d| d.set(b"AcroForm".to_vec(), Object::Dict(form))).unwrap();
+    let (fields, cut) = super::listing::sig_fields_bounded(&doc);
+    assert!(cut, "the walk stopped at its depth limit without saying so");
+    assert!(fields.len() < 80, "a cut walk lists what it reached: {}", fields.len());
+}